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Author Topic: Pentagon seen failing women  (Read 1772 times)
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kiwi
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« on: October 06, 2007, 07:42:56 AM »

Pentagon seen failing women
By Sara A. Carter
October 5, 2007

A military watchdog group says the Pentagon is failing to uphold laws that protect women in the Army from combat and that the Rand Corp.'s recent report is meant to "whitewash" the whole issue.



The Center for Military Readiness, an independent organization opposed to women in combat, is calling for a congressional hearing to clarify the Department of Defense's "actual law for women serving in the military."



Pentagon officials disagree, stating the Rand report "Assessing the Assignment Policy for Army Women," which was posted Aug. 7 on the Rand Web site (www.rand.org) answered the questions it was assigned. The Rand report was mandated in the 2006 National Defense Authorization Act after a May 2005 House Armed Services Committee oversight debate on women in or near direct ground combat. Rand Corp. is a nonprofit global policy think tank.



"The Rand report completed its work requested by DoD to review assignment patterns by women and their compatibility with current policies," said Lt. Col. Jonathan Withington, a Defense Department spokesman. "The report confirms that the Army has remained in compliance with DoD policy regarding the assignment of women."



Elaine Donnelly, president of the Center for Military Readiness, whose group is hosting its 12th annual conference in Washington this week, said the report failed to uphold the objectivity standards for which the research organization has been noted. She said the report deliberately withheld pertinent information from the assessment and convoluted the actual role of women serving in the military.



"Instead of clarifying Defense Department rules, the 2007 Rand report creates needless confusion with misinformation, unsupported findings, flawed assumptions and misguided recommendations that attempt to validate questionable Army practices," Mrs. Donnelly said.



"Absent public awareness, congressional inquiries and intervention by President George W. Bush, illicit practices are already creating unprecedented problems in land combat units that used to be all male. These include sexual misconduct incidents and evacuations due to pregnancy. Left unresolved, the situation invites more incremental steps in the wrong direction, all without congressional oversight or accountability to the American people."



Rand researchers, however, found that the rules governing embedding of female soldiers are ambiguous. The Rand report stated that it could not determine whether the policy is actually being violated.

"We looked at Army and DoD policy and both are currently active, neither supercedes the other," said Margaret C. Harrell, senior social scientist and lead author of the Rand report. "The Army is adhering to the DoD policy for assignment of women, but it is not clear that the Army is adhering to their own policy for the assignment of women."


The confusion is what Mrs. Donnelly said Congress and the military need to clarify.


Army spokesman Robert Tallman said the report confirms that the Army is "not assigning women to direct combat roles."


In 1994, Defense Secretary Les Aspin established the current policy for women in the military with a memorandum that stated that "personnel can be assigned to all positions for which they are qualified, except that women shall be excluded from assignment to units below the brigade level whose primary mission is to engage in direct combat on the ground."


Mrs. Donnelly argues that the Defense Department policy restricts the assignment of women to units whose primary mission is direct ground combat, whereas the Army restricts assignment to units that have a routine mission of direct combat.


She added in a written argument that Army and Defense Department policies define combat differently: "The Army's definition of direct combat includes a requirement that there be a risk of capture, but also includes 'repelling the enemy's assault.' "

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071005/NATION/110050065/1002/NATION


I think if women join the military then they should be held to the same standards and limitations as a man.

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« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2007, 01:18:15 PM »

Im not an Army man, so maybe I should not be pronoucing myself on this, and I know women and men are not 100% the same, but I think when women were given equal rights, they were supposed to be treated the same and given the same rights as men. Even in the normal workplace women are still not paid the same as a man, this is not giving equal rights to women! We need to decide once and for all are women and men equal! And if they are, we need to allow women in combat like men.Our societies still have a long way to go,we are still living according to old and outdated policies,time for us to change things.
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 05:48:14 AM »

This topic has been aired once before, maybe on another site. Personally, I'm of the old school. Women have proved to be invaluable in covert intelligence operations. SOE in occupied France, 14 Int Det in Northern Ireland to give just two of the many ops they've been involved in. However in front line, face to face combat I disagree. At the moment, in Iraq and Afganistan, female medics to patrol with their Regiments, and one recently won the Military Cross for gallantary (rightly deserved to), but women as Infanteers......not for me.

In all other aspects, women must take forces life like the men, but spare them combat roles!
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 05:59:44 AM »

I think its more choice should be given, they want the roles let them have it. Its going to come a time when you will have to face women on the other team, even now that is happening.

I think its a western male ideas that need to change.
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Crusty
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 07:13:49 AM »

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, Poppet. It's not a question of Western male perception, but a question of anatomy and biology. I have never been on operational tours with women, but I have been a member of the Directing Staff, (DS), on many training exercises and shooting camps. As tough as some of the REME female mechanics were, when it came to the hard realities of carrying 45lbs of fighting order, helmet, rifle spare 81mm mortar round, spare 200 round link 7.62mm ball ammunition over a long distance in double quick time, followed by a flanking assault and re-organisation, then a further advance to contact over broken terrain,well, there weren't many of them able to keep up, and that was without anyone firing live ammunition at them!  wink
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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2007, 05:44:00 AM »

Maybe you should of
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Crusty
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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2007, 07:10:29 AM »

In my operational days, the nearest the women got to flak was the female chef preparing our egg banjos, chips and tea when we got back off patrol at God o' clock in the morning!

INCOMING!!

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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 07:23:16 AM »

Jesus Christ Crusty!

Totally in the era of the Good Housewives Guide aren't you?

Theres me thinking my stud of a Crusty  is a sexy loving woman type man, and you are this basic Pommie Bugger  ed

Tut ....tut..... FOR SHAME!!!!!!!!
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Crusty
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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 08:37:18 AM »

I'm a perfect gentlemen, as can be testified by satisfied ladies from all over the world!! handkiss

As for the female chefs. The Army Catering Corps wouldn't let them come out on patrol, but the work they, and their male colleagues, did on Northern Ireland tours, providing hot meals of high quality 24 hours a day, seven days a week for six months was a real morale booster for the Toms. ( I believe their extra curricula duties also helped with morale quite considerably. NO I DIDN'T!!)
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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2007, 08:57:17 AM »

I never said a WORD!
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« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2007, 11:30:21 AM »

Ive seen women as tough as men, and men as tough as dried twigs (im talking about strength not something else)
A woman going into combat should recieve the SAME training as a man,if she fails then she's out, if she passes then she's in its as simple as that, I dont think everyone is cut out to be a soldier in the first place, i believe and seen really tough women out there, and they should not be given special treatment when entering tht infantry, then we will be able to judge their capabilities. Gun
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2007, 04:42:56 AM »

I was  not going to commnet this; but SB has a point; if the female pass the old not doctored  tests and full training that's OK; but no priviliges or special atention and no politicisng by feminists who'll never volunteer into military or see the combat otside TV in first place. We need real committed wariors there  Gun
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Crusty
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« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2007, 01:45:53 AM »

My last post on this subject. With a few exceptions, women cannot operate efffectively as front line soldiers, certainly not in an Infantry role. I have seen this myself. The physical standards, in the British Army, for women, are lower than for their male counterparts because there is a physical and biological difference.

This rose tinted view, that appears to be prevalent on this thread, that women can do the job if they get the same training is complete pie in the sky. They CAN'T get the same training because they are built differently, oth pschologically and physically.

BTDT and got the bloody tee-shirt. Get real, people!  real mad
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« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2007, 04:43:22 AM »

Then what about Russian and Israeli women, hmmm they are built the same as anyother woman.  razz

But I am in agreement with you Crusty on one point. That I feel that they shouldn't be in the front line, officer class is far better  big grin grin
« Last Edit: October 14, 2007, 04:45:45 AM by kiwi1988 SF » Logged
Crusty
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2007, 02:49:35 AM »

Granted...the Russians did have female tank crew members, but Israeli women were not deployed as Infantry. An urban myth generated by propaganda!

OK then, here's one example of a woman who 'ALLEDGEDLEY' cut the mustard as an Infanteer.   smile1 One Phoebe Hassel, 5th Regiment of Foot.

http://www.eastlondonhistory.com/hessel.htm

She couldn't have been that good. All that time in the Northumberland Fusiliers, and she only managed to reach the dizzy heights of Private, (Fusilier).  big grin

« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 02:56:02 AM by Crusty » Logged
kiwi
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2007, 05:08:36 AM »

Well she never got alot of support to make it past private, cause Crusty the pommie stud wasn't there  Devil ed




 big grin

"thems me tits sir"  salute reg
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Crusty
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2007, 05:53:52 AM »

Regarding my earlier comments of women in battle during the 20th Century.....I stand corrected!  grin

http://www.lothene.demon.co.uk/others/women20.html

 ed

But I still stand by my belief that women are not front line troops!!! big grin
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2007, 08:09:57 AM »

LOL ok no worries
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« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2007, 10:55:12 AM »

Maybe if we feed women more red meat that should do the trick....... maybe?........lol big grin
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